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Syneron: elos, eLight, eMax, & LipoLite > Any experience with Syneron?

Does anyone have any experience with Syneron skin tightening (Refirm) or their Matrix fractional unit? I have a VelaSmooth that I am desperately trying to get rid of and it looks like the only thing I am left with doing is upgrading to one of their other pieces of equipment. Any suggestions or comments on this would greatly be appreciated.
DC

12.19 | Unregistered Commenterdc

DC,

Don't fall for that B.S. they are probably just giving you credit for the Velasmooth that they could of done anyway. Why would you spend more money with them with you are dissatisfied? Sometimes it's better to just eat a loss and chalk it up to learning a lesson. Tough advice but I bet there are many on this site who have done this. Don't reward them by buying more equipment. Just a thought.

Dexter

12.19 | Unregistered Commenterdexter

We use Refirme. I get results on some patients, and none on others. It basically comes down to a limited field of pts that it works on, and very realistic expectations. But, I have seen lift after treatments.

I really like my Refirme and Matrix-IR from Syneron! There definitely is a variation of results between patients. But I find that mild laxity for most of the women I've treated was visibly improved with the Refirme within the first 2 treatments (and indeed, some of my patients stop there, happy with their results). For more significant laxity and for deeper wrinkles, I combine the ST and the Matrix treatments and get great results. I'm finding that the wrinkles improve better on caucasion patients with the Matrix..and they experience more discomfort if set at the energies used for my Asian patients (probably reflecting the greater heat developing).

I always take before and after pics under identical lighting conditions. The subtle changes with the first treatment (in women) is usually a change in the face shape from rectangular (with heavy jowls) to a more "heart" shape (with emphasis occuring more at the malar prominences. I will be honest with a patient if I'm not seeing changes in the pictures...but interestingly, some of my patients still continue, getting a personal sense of improvement from a treatment which is painless (and in their mind very pampering)...go figure!

So far I'm very satisfied with the Syneron heads I have: the SR,ST and MTX-IR. My Asian patients love the results..as I like to joke, we Asians don't wrinkle as we age...we just look more and more like Chairman Mao. My perfect patient is one who wants improvement but is not wanting anything invasive (needles or surgery).

Winona WongMD,
I am glad to hear you are pleased with Syneron. Personally, I couldn't be more disappointed. I have now called the company 6 times in 3 weeks and cannot get anyone to call me back to discuss my options.
Want to buy a VelaSmooth really, really cheap???!!!

02.18 | Unregistered Commenterdc

dc: I suggest you call your marketting rep if you want a response. I had no desire to massage the fatty areas of my patients, and similarly had no desire to attack unwanted hair or stubborn spider veins. Since I do all the treatments in my small practice, I limited myself to the Skin rejuvenation, skin tightening and Matrix heads. Sorry you're having such a bad experience with Syneron. I hope you can at least trade up to the ST and SR.

dc,

I can totally relate to your Syneron disappointment. We have had ALOT of trouble getting any type of response from the Syneron company. We finally had to turn it over to an attorney. Buyers beware!

02.23 | Unregistered Commenterdh

dh,
Were you able to get a refund on your purchase? I am considering getting an attorney. We have now been told by Syneron that it will cost me around $60k to upgrade from Velasmooth to Velashape? This is robbery!!!
dc

03.17 | Unregistered Commenterdc

if you're having trouble with the refirme get it checked out. i have an elite and velasmooth but after 6 months needed the RF on the elite ramping up. I had 4 patients in a row with completely no results and was furious. This sorted it and am seeing much better results. Possibly worth checking out.

Velasmooth: how many treatments are you doing in a course. Everyone is worried about velashape but my velasmooth has never been so busy. Was in paris earlier this year and some latest studies show great results with just one treatemnt a week. In practice i'd agree. The whole course takes longer but at least gives more flexibility to patients.

05.16 | Unregistered Commenterukdoctor

ukdoctor,

are you saying that you are getting good results with velasmooth alone? once a week? for cellulite?

06.6 | Unregistered Commentersk

DC, I would agree with what Dexter said above. If you want to buy the Refirme and Matrix do it, but I don't think you'll be getting a better deal by trading in your Velasmooth that you are unhappy with.

I've been satisfied with our Velashape, after spending10k to upgrade from the Velasmooth. I have a hard time believing it would cost 60k for the Velashape upgrade as the discounted price of the unit is only 65k. I've found the biggest challenge with my Velashape is getting the correct patient expectations. It works alright, but it's not going to remove all cellulite and it's not a tummy tuck. Our Velashape pays for itself, but not much more.

11.24 | Unregistered CommenterTexas MD

DC, We have the Refirme and we have really liked it. We used Thermage before, it made us a lot of money initially, but the pain was too much for most patients, Thermage tips were very expensive and our clients have liked the switch to Refirme. I still have my Thermage becuase I will get people that call and ask for the treatment, I can charge less for the Refirme and make similar profit so during the consultation I will ususally promote the Refirme.

I have not purchased the Matrix IR, we had it demoned in our office, but it seemed a bit pricey. The option we are looking at instead is the Matrix RF which is more of a resurfacing applicator and almost the same price. We looked at Fraxel as many people in my area have asked for it and they seem to like it, but the price tag was too much for our office right now.

I have worked with Fraxel, Palamar and Syneron for skin tightening treatments and thus far had far greater patient satifaction with the the Fraxel and Palomar equipment. Palomar 1540 for acne scars and pore reduction excellent, however not so good with pigmented lesions or vessels so we stick with IPL for that. Fraxel for fine lines, acne scars, and some pigmentary changes. Syneron has not proven to have any positive results with skin rejuvenation.

We are thinking of purchasing a Active Fx to add to our practice. I have recently heard about problems with skin type four's and post inflamatory pigment problems. Can anyone comment on this?

I have been working a lot with Synerons Triniti-concept (SRA, Refirm and Matrix IR) and we get good to excellent results on all our patients. I started with the Triniti 1 year ago. I have some friends using the Fraxel and Palomars system, and they are not so happy about the tightening effect from those systems.

11.30 | Unregistered CommenterJK

Does anyone have experience with the Syneron Matrix RF?

12.19 | Unregistered CommenterJJ Kirk

Med Spa Girl, you said you recieved good results with Fraxel and Palomar for acne scars and you used example of their fractional technologies, but then you said Syneron has not shown results for skin rejuvenation. Did you use the fractional device from Syneron (Matrix RF)? If not, this wouldnt be a direct comparison of the technologies you listed as skin rejuvenation from Syneron is done with IPL and not fractional.

I've owned and operated numerous IPL machines including ProLite, Syneron, McCue, and Cutera and I've never had any trouble treating pigmented leasions.

Aussie, is right. Med spa girl, you are not comparing apples to apples when you compare a invasive fractional treatment to a non invasive treatment like skin rejuvenation.

JJ, I have seen the Matrix RF demonstrated, but I have not personally had the treatment or performed it on any patients in my clinic. The demonstration I attended was at an educational dinner event and the treatment was performed on one of the attendees. The areas she was treated were red and you could see the small marks created from the fractional applicator. I was not able to see this patient the next day, but during the procedure you could smell the skin from the ablation. The patient said it felt like a sunburn, but it seemed like a normal response in regards to discomfort.

I would never suggest Refirme to anyone. I tried it at open house, hosted by plastic surgeon. It was a disaster. I was burned and now I am left with 2 scars on my face. They say it does not hurt, but in truth it was extremely painful

11.4 | Unregistered CommenterSusan

Yes I am stuck with a Vela Smooth too as I wouldn't put any more money in to upgrade....sometimes you just have to cut your losses. Very unhappy with Syneron...customer service is non existent.

01.22 | Unregistered CommenterKM

And now that the CANDELA acquisition is apparently a done deal Syneron is the world's largest (in terms of volume and gross sales) aesthetic device company!!

We own the SR/SRA/ST/IR/RF heads.
We have had few customers thrilled with results. for the amount of $ they pay.
Pigmentation issues are addressed with the SR and SRA heads.
Rosacia better too.
The ST head should be thrown out in my opinion right along with the IR head.
The RF does have show some improvement in with ance scars and okay textural changes.
Still the price tag is not worth the results.
I have heard others say they have hired attorneys? Shouldn't Syneron stand behind their product?

IR head is painful. But no pain no gain. I push for max power for each txt. You will see result 2-3 months later. I usually do 5-6 passes per site per visit. Yes it is painful, but it works.

RF head is very good on the peri-orbital area but not so good on the forehead. It can be quite painful on the forehead. I usually do the forehead first prior doing anywhere else.
Forehead is the easiest place to sweat. Matrix rf greatest foe is moisture. When there is sweat / tears of joy, I have found RF can be quite painful even with BLT on.

i have tried stacking using RF head on certain area. Instead of going, for example 1 X c-24, I would go with B16 X 3.
I am still playing with RF head, but I do believe, RF and IR are working, just not what the manufacturer claims, in my honest opinion.

03.17 | Unregistered Commenterc.lee

Thanks C.Lee
You seem to be a big supporter.
I know the IR is painful and we use the highest settings and up to 6 passes.
There is some change but none like the pictures synerson uses. I think they may be photoshopped?
What are your thoughts on the ST head? We are spending up to an hour and putting in over 2000 pulses again at the highest setting but very little results?
Someone suggested not using the SR/SRA head until the last in the Trinity? Any tricks you know would be helpful to us none belivers?
Maybe we have got a lemon of a machine.
Thanks again

Hi! WARNING! DONT BUY USED SYNERON!

my clinic located at Europe! I buy Syneron Aurora in USA at used medical equpment store!

I Has BAD experience with SYNERON! I buy used Syneron hair removal equp-t for 22k, Furstival comparing with other brands, Syneron stay not even close!
Syneron (Galaxy or Aurora) is not effective as must be equpment costed 70k $, I am very dissapointed about that brand!

i has a lot of truble with it! for one of many example:
after 2 months headpiece applicator DS (hair emoval) broken. i was call Directly to Syneron representative to fix ir or but new aplicator, and he says "you buy it from third party store in USA, furstival american version Syneron lower quality and it BURN all the time, we will not fix it, and we will not even sell you new applicator because we dont want provide warranty for hair removal applicator to use with your Syneron Aurora, and you must buy new one only From us, AND YOU MUST RECYCLE YOUR UNIT- BUT ONLY WE CAN RECYCLE IT, SO SEND TO US WHAT YOU HAVE FOR YOUR EXPENCE AND WE WILL DO IT (RECYCLE) FOR U - WE CAN SELL YOU NEW WITH NO DISCOUNT".

I try to complain to head office of SYNERON company "It seems as though you have not purchased from Syneron, but have acquired your system from a third party vendor. Unfortunately, customers that purchase from third party vendors are not provided with Syneron accounts and thus, are not able to acquire technical, clinical, marketing or customer support. To get support, third party customers must establish a warranty with our company. "

SOUNDS LIKE FOR EXAMPLE YOU BUY USED 4 year old CAR for 10k $ witch is 40k$ in brand new condition FROM second OWNER, THAN AFTER WEEK YOUR BREAKS PAD NEED REPLACE, YOU TAKE CAR CO DEALER for after warranty service (for money) AND DEALER WILL TELL YOU "You buy this car from second owner (thurd party). warranty on car expired, we will not change your breaks, and we will not sell you break pads, all you can do is take your car to junk yard, and come back to us"

So if you dont want have this experience, better pick anover brand with BETTERS AFTER WARRANTY SERVICE, OR YOU WILL BLOW OUT OF PROFFIT!

05.7 | Unregistered CommenterMarat

i CAN SHARE WITH ANY OF YOU MY EXPERIENCE!

CAN email me

bimarat at yahoo dot com

05.7 | Unregistered CommenterMarat

Marat: Your experience with Syneron is similar to what I ran into a few years ago with Cynosure. Many of the "leading" device companies have similar policies. You cannot compare medical devices wioth automobiles because medical devices are subject to strict regulatory requirements in most countries. As you have discovered, it can be foolish to purchase a used device at a bargain basement price without any assurance that you can get it repaired and maintained in the future at a reasonable cost. You CAN purchase used equipment in many cases provided that you can either get assurances from a third party that they have access to replacement pasts and can service the device for you OR you insist that the SELLER have the device inspected and CERTIFIED by the manufacturer before you agree to buy it AND make sure the mfr will cover the device with an extended service agreement for a reasonable annual cost. Some companies charge outrageous amounts for certification, and others are quite reasonable. It requires a lot of time and due diligence to make the right moves. As you have discovered, medical devices can be a veritable MINE FIELD.

Marat,

it sounds like you didn't want to spend money partnering with the nmanufacturer - but rather on the gray, used laser market. when you had issues, you wanted the company to support you, yet you offered no revenue to them with the route you chose to purchase. do you see where I am going with this?

Med Spa Girl - Yes, you potentially will have issues treating Fitz 4+ w/Active FX (or potentially any Co2 laser) - we've known this since the Ultrapulse Co2 w/Coherent Medical....same physics/science with Co2 totday as it was 20 years ago. try Er:YSGG or Er:YAG

06.6 | Unregistered Commenterdavid

Like with any other used lasers, you can get them for cheap. Yes you can get great deal but will you be able to have the parts or consumables available when you need them?

That is the difference between a $155,000usd fully loaded syneorn emax vs the used $30,000usd emax.
I bought a used laser that was about 20% of the original cost. The laser worked for about 3 months, until one of the computer board got fried. We able to fix it with the help of my military contractor friend. Then about 2 months later, another minor part needs servicing. It would cost about $500 from dealer, but because I did not buy from the manufacturer / dealer, I was not able to get the service and repair we wanted. so now this $20,000usd laser is just sitting pretty at the entrance.

The dealer said they would service us only if we agreed to pay $30,000usd royalty fees.
i want to share my costly mistake with everyone of you folks out there. It is better to buy refurnished or demo unit from dealers rather to buy used from elsewhere, because, the laser you buy will be the laser that help you generate money. Either way, if you like the laser brand, you will be ripped off by the dealers, sooner or later.Just a matter of time.

06.6 | Unregistered Commenterarthur

Sounds to me that the laser company takes advantage of the doctor throughout the entire relationship . Spemd this mch buy that much and dont look at aftermarket or used equiptment.
Sounds like they will be like the auto dealers, as soon as the laser craze is over and another technology captures the crowed these guys will have their equiptment being sold at auction to the highest bidder.

06.6 | Unregistered Commenterglennm

If you are interested in selling your machines, please call me. or email me.
premierlaserspecialists@gmail.com

I would think VERY carefully before purchasing ANYTHING from Adrian Sabitino OR Shawn Burkey. I purchased a Palomar 1540 hand piece from these individuals in December of 2009 for $10k. The hand peice never worked. They refused to take my phone calls or refund any of my money or replace the hand peice. I do not think they treat everyone this way. But it is a absolute fact that they did this to me.

david@txlasersolutions.com

"You cannot compare medical devices wioth automobiles because medical devices are subject to strict regulatory requirements in most countries"

I think it is important for users to realize why the used laser market is so "grey". First of all, medical devices do not compare to automobiles because of regulatory standards, rather because they lose their value FASTER. Let me just discuss lasers, as that is what we are all here about.

21 CFR 1040.10-11 is the codified law on lasers in the United States. This, 820.170, and other sections of 21 CFR that cover medical devices is the only Federal Law that governs the use, service, and maintenance of lasers. Many states have adopted ANSI Z136 which requires lasers be serviced bi-annually as well, but most of ANSI Z136 is covered in 21 CFR 1040.10-11, though TJC (formerly JCAHO), OSHA, and other advisory, regulatory, and accrediting bodies adopt ANSI as well, including the ASLMS.

Now, from 21 CFR 1040.10-11: (2)Purchasing and servicing information. Manufacturers of laser products shall provide or cause to be provided:

(ii) To servicing dealers and distributors and to others upon request at a cost not to exceed the cost of preparation and distribution, adequate instructions for service adjustments and service procedures for each laser product model

Considering this, the law clearly states that not only should servicing information be made available to ALL ('others' includes all other than servicing dealers and distributors), but that manufacturer's cannot PROFIT from the distribution of this servicing information ('at a cost not to exceed the cost of preparation and distribution').

I have a standard process for a formal 21 CFR request to manufacturers, and I report violators to the FDA. I have a direct line to Margaret Hamburg (the Commissioner of the FDA), Sean Boyd (director of CDRH at the FDA), and Kathleen Sebelius (secretary of HHS), and companies who refuse my request are investigated, and sometimes fined (See Spectranetics vs. US Justice Department, Dec. 2009). In the end, I always get the servicing information, special tools, software, and oftentimes, training. Any servicer who does not follow this process does not possess ALL the information required by 21 CFR 1040.10-11. For example- if you call AMS and order a service manual for the Aura XP, you will receive a 50 page list of error codes, and pay $500. I received installation, adjustment, and servicing information for nothing using this process (they chose not to charge me for preparation and distribution, though I was willing to pay).

It is the willful and continuous violation of this process that makes the used laser market "grey". Manufacturer's upgrade software locking out third parties who have acquired service software for previous versions, and owners are left with un-serviceable equipment because they refuse to pay the high cost of an upgrade. Lasers drop more than 50% in value within months of use for this very reason. The cost of service drives down the value of used lasers- including brand new ones.

A vehicle drops in value related to what customers are willing to pay. No vehicle drops 50% of it's value after 6 months of use, and many retain their value years after initial release. This is directly related to the ability of ANYONE to repair vehicles, and acquire servicing information.

Though laser manufacturers have become accustomed to getting away with violating US Law, it is in their best interest to follow it- not because it's the law, but financially. Would you rather buy a brand new laser who only the manufacturer can service, or a brand new laser ANYONE can service to the manufacturer's standard? Rhetorical question...

we love out St and our SR syneron hand pieces....they work great and our clients love the results !!!!!

sorry, I meant we love our ST and SR syneron hand pieces. so does our clients.

I really enjoy my Syneron Emax. Especially the DSL handpiece. My facility has a great response from our patients. Everyone seems to be pleased with the results. We have had our machine for over 2 years and could not be happier. None of our handpieces have given us any problems.

06.15 | Unregistered CommenterJim Faulk

I have not had the success as you have had with Emax. Some of our patients were not as satisfied with the results but we have only had our machine for a few months. We will stick it out and see if things change for us.

Our medical office prefers Syneron also. We have an Elight and an E Laser. Both units give us the results our patients are looking for. I am interested in also getting a fractional handpiece ( The Matrix ) How would I go about obtaining one of these? Are there any members that know a good source for a used on or should I go direct to the manufacturer?
I am open for suggesstions. Thank you

working with a Syneron Auro , model from 2014..not sure I getting the results I need.
Anyone have any advice for me?

08.25 | Unregistered CommenterCarole

I need the newer version software for an E-max in order to run an IR Matrix handpiece. I have the older version 1.1 which will run all other handpieces except the IR which requires version 1.13 or higher.
I will buy and/or trade 1.1 with cash for newer version 1.13.
Syneron of course willl provide nothing

09.23 | Unregistered CommenterJ Dorsey

We have used the eMax system for the past 5 years, and have 2 of them (one at each office), and have found the Refirme (ST) head to be effective for skin tightening. We also have the Matrix IR and also the Matrix RF (now called Sublative RF) which also works well. The Matrix IR is used when there are more discreet deep wrinkles. The IR head is pulsed along the wrinkle for around 3-5 passes to build collagen back into the crease. If a person has more diffuse wrinkles, texture, or acne scars, then the Matrix RF is the better choice (basically used as the same indication with fractional lasers, except it uses just RF). In addition, almost all of our patients that receive the Matrix RF do also express that they have skin tightening. The Matrix RF also has been updated with new software and tip design from what they initially put out in 2008, and does seem to work better now.

What it comes down to is understanding the tools you have and how to use them well, and understanding which tool to use and when to use them. Also, having a good set of tools to address the needs in an aesthetic practice. In your situation, if you have the SR/SRA for skin rejuvenation color correction, and don't have a skin tightening treatment, then the Refirme would be a good treatment to combine with your SR/SRA.

in consideration of your Velasmooth, it is not worth much anymore because of the upgrades to the VelaShape and now the VelaShape 2. When we had the Velasmooth, we made it work better by doing much longer treatments so that the patient's treatment areas would get really hot, and then maintain it at that temperature for a longer period of time. With the VelaShape, its accomplished more quickly. But it does sound like you are looking to exit the Vela.

I would try to talk to the current rep from Syneron, as they have gone through some staff changes, and see how eager they are with making some sales. Its end of quarter right now, so you can get an idea of the best deal they can offer. Then see what they will do with your Velasmooth.

I actually still have a VelaSmooth sitting around that doesn't get used much (we did upgrade our other VelaSmooth to a VelaShape, which is used most of the time). One feature of the VelaSmooth that cannot be done with the newer models, is that you can run the IR and RF without any suction. There are a few incidences where this may be useful as a skin tightening device.

I hope this helps, and good luck to you with everything working out.

09.29 | Registered CommenterKai Yan

I have trouble with the Syneron Aurora overheating quickly (within about 20 minutes), and constantly going in "cooling down" mode. Anyone have experience with this? The unit is no longer under warranty with Syneron because I refuse to pay the huge sum they demand for annual maintenance. Thanks in advance.

10.5 | Unregistered Commentersef

I like Dexter's wisdom from the start of this blog. You have to cut your losses when you realize the manufacturer has an awful reputation and many are unhappy with customer service or the gimmicky 'IPL plus RF.' Makes you wonder when or where any true science is behind any of what they offer....

10.18 | Registered CommenterOSTspa

I have been in the laser business for quite some time dealing with owners of lasers. There are quite a few things that I have noted along the way, and I have observed hundreds, if not thousands of treatments. I have realized that those customers that alienate their local reps seem to have the most issues. These customers tend to be dollar driven from day one and seldom care that the rep is out there doing their job to earn a living as well. I have had a huge amount of experience dealing with customer service departments, including Syneron and I have to say that I can not recall an instance when calls go unanswered. It's funny that the offices that I have dealt with that act like human beings tend to get exceptional service and get this, exceptional results. One thing I learned many years ago about problem solving is start with yourself first. Have you done all you can do to be a great customer? Do you have a great relationship with the company that you have partnered with? Or do you only care about your bottom line?

If you bought used equipment and you have problems why should someone else be at fault for your bad business decision? I mentioned the word partner earlier because those that truly partner up reap the rewards in many ways. Do yourself a favor and look in the mirror before you come onto the web and blast a company for your shortcomings.

10.21 | Unregistered CommenterSynFan

Well, hold on there. I agree and disagree with your statement:

"Do you have a great relationship with the company that you have partnered with? Or do you only care about your bottom line?"

Of course all I care about is my bottom line-hello? This is a business, not a charity. If a laser or a technology or a rep or an employee is not going to contribute to the bottom line than it's time to move along.

But I do agree that partnering with your Syneron rep and treating them like a human being actually CONTRIBUTES to your bottom line. My Syneron rep has been nothing short of outstanding even helping to pay for patient events to drive the business.

Syneron's customer service department is also very good, particularly when compared to their competitors. However, like everything in life, you get what you give.

If you purchase used equipment and try to game the system that Syneron has set up, you will not be serviced. To me and my investors, I would rather bite the bullet and get great equipment that will be serviced immediately than nickel and dime by getting used, older equipment. You will save $$$ initially but over the long run it will cost you much more in terms of time spent chasing down repair techs, getting parts etc, cancelling patient appointments, fielding refund requests, etc.

As far as the elos technology is concerned, is it a gimmick? Who cares? What in this industry isn't a gimmick? It's filled with marketing hyperbole. But just because a company has a great Marketing department-doesn't mean the technology is substandard.

As long as the patients are getting what they paid for, it's FDA approved, and most importantly, is profitable- a laser manufacturer's reputation and/or marketing is irrelevent to me.

Syneron is the bottom dwellers of the industry. The profit margins are huge.. the average cost to build is one of the cheapest in the industry.. Technology is very underimpressive. Stay clear... This company preys on non Derm and plastics. They do have a core of hired guns who are preceptors or luminaries... Who are the marketing machine for them. Take calls etc...Mullholland,Sadick,A handful of others Hema Sundram..all getting hands greased. Bottom line is underpowered, in ability to control pulse width to match therma relaxation time. Stay clear.....please... the pre owned market is an indicator of the quality of a unit.notice Syneron has most listings. Velashape is a joke....any doc w credibility wouldnt offer a device like this .... All the results are edema based and temporary...

[WARNING: This person has posted under a number of different names from the IP address 76.106.35.169 in Middletown Maryland. This is an indication that the person is posting false comments in an attempt to influence the discussion. - Medical Spa MD]

10.25 | Unregistered Commenterlvr3

Completely disagree. I oversee 4 medspas and consult for others: Syneron equipment makes $.

VelaShape 1 & 2 are no joke, they work, I have the before and afters of hundreds of satisfied patients.

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